Self-Trust And Doing Through Doubt with Sasha of Frank+Feel
My guest this week is Sasha - a freelance creative writer and founder of Frank+Feel - where Sasha encourages us to explore our self-trust through journaling. We talk about trying new things, and the unexpected places that might take us, and we also talk about doing through doubt.
Things we talked about:
Self-belief and marketing and how we approach this as small business owners
Why we shouldn't look at what we sell through the eyes of what issues we can solve or what our clients/customers lack
How Frank+Feel started and Sasha's openness with sharing her messy middle
Sasha's journaling process and how she lets her journaling reflect how she feels, along with sharing her 3 prompts that help her journal and keep her grounded
Why listening to our bodies is important and how to acknowledge those feelings through journaling
How moving through self-doubt can lead to completion
Abundance from making changes and taking on new opportunities
You can find Sasha here:
Website: frankandfeel.com
FULL TRANSCRIPT (computer generated):
Anna Dunleavy 00:02
You're listening to business in bloom podcast for creative female entrepreneurs, and a home to honest conversations about the ups and downs of running your own business. I'm your host and self belief business coach Anna Dunleavy, and we'll explore topics on self doubt, following your intuition, and why self limiting beliefs might be holding you back. Hello, and welcome back to Episode 84. I'm really excited to share this one with you. And my guest this week is Sasha, a freelance creative writer and founder of Franken feel where Sasha encourages us to explore our self trust through journaling. And we talk about trying new things and the unexpected places that might take us. And we also talk about doing through doubt. I hope you like it. Hi, Sasha, thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 00:54
Hello, Anna, I'm really good. The weather has had such a good effect on me, I think. And generally, as I've seen, it's had such it's been such a good mood booster. So I'm feeling really quite sprightly today, actually.
Anna Dunleavy 01:09
Oh, nice. Nice. I know it does make such a difference, actually. It seems. Yeah. I think for me, though, when it's written when the days are really warm, I kind of want to not do very much has a weird effect on the work side of things where I kind of I really want, you know, really craving that lazy summer vibes, you know,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 01:36
I know it well, yeah, I have to kind of keep going to sit outside just in like little 10 minute breaks, just answering email out here. Or if I do something from my friend here, and I spend a lot longer out there than than was planned.
Anna Dunleavy 01:50
Well, actually, but that's a really nice way of doing it and having little breaks here and there. And actually, you know, soaking it up, because ultimately, why the hell not? Remember where we live so? Exactly, exactly. We've got to take it, you know, make the most of it. Yeah. So why don't you introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about what it is that you do?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 02:15
Sure. My name is Sasha, and I am a freelance creative writer, I use words to connect with people for a living. My do that in a few ways. I work with small female owned business owners to bring words that fit to their audience through my own writing. I write newsletters and on social media, via Franken feel I share words that kind of draw, draw people away from self doubt, towards self trust. And largely It started with my own journey. But I think it's one of resonance resonance with a lot of people. And I also run journaling workshops that speak to the business values of turning from self doubt towards self trust and increasing autonomy and priority in our lives as women. And yeah, largely, I just like to bring words to people and also help them find the words that help them start to rewrite their own narratives.
Anna Dunleavy 03:18
You are very much speaking my language because, obviously, you know, I that kind of the work that I do with business owners is very much centred around cultivating that self belief and self trust. And I think it's such a kind of key component of running a business, but also just to kind of go through life with a with a little bit more self trust. And I think, and perhaps we'll explore that later. I think it's not something that we are usually, I don't want to obviously generalise too much. But for the most part quite quite a lot of us haven't been taught that or perhaps it hasn't been modelled to us while we were when we were growing up. So yeah,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 04:02
I think even if it hasn't been even if it has been modelled, I feel like the standard seems to be all the other stuff that invites you to look outside of yourself for answers, whether that's through marketing, consumption by retail, and just being in life. So even if you have had it, I feel like them the messages hammered home a lot more often about the stuff that leans away from that rather than towards it.
Anna Dunleavy 04:33
Yeah, that is such a juicy topic, I think, because I've been kind of reflecting on that a lot. I mean, I don't want to kind of go off on a tangent perhaps we'll, we'll come to it but the you know, marketing messages that we get, particularly particularly in their kind of, you know, from the bigger companies but also its seeped through into the way we approach marketing as small businesses because I think that That's kind of seen as the only way that is possible. And so I think, yeah, so I think that's a really, it's a really kind of tricky terrain.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 05:10
I think. I think I think you're right, because I guess we've likely I can only speak for myself, but we've probably all done courses and had freebies and worksheets and signed up to emails and stuff where I guess the thing that we have been told in order to market whatever service or product is that you have is, what problem do you speak to? what problem are you solving? And I do find something a little bit off with that message. Because sometimes, because that kind of means that maybe we're always seeking to be fixed. And I don't necessarily think that that's always the right way to approach something, that it's something about less than I like the idea of particularly with my my journaling workshops, it being about adding to adding to what's what's already there, rather than filling a hole or filling a gap. I like to look at things from my sense of abundance, rather than lack, I guess.
Anna Dunleavy 06:21
Yeah, I love that. And it's, it's something that I kind of like to really think about when I'm doing the kind of coaching side of things. Because for me, the like automatic kind of foundation of the coaching is that you already have the answers within you. And what you're talking about is is just kind of adding to it's not, you know, looking for ways to be fixed rates, rather just maybe pulling out the pieces that were a little bit more hidden, if that already there. So yeah, I really love that. Right. So let's go back to the beginning. You mentioned that you are a freelance creative writer. Tell us a little bit about that work. And then perhaps I would love to hear a little bit more about how Frank and Phil came about as well.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 07:11
I think I've kind of struggled to give give myself a label. It's like, you do lots of things. But what do you do? Who are you? What's your label, and I guess we are creatures that like to seek labels and boxes. And actually, it's funny, because that's quite the opposite of the reason for why I wanted to set up this business or why it came about in the first place. It was being tired actually, of labels and other people determining my worth. So it's interesting that I kind of have curved back to wanting to seek a label, but I guess it's for the purposes of, you know, expressing and sharing what you do, you do have to have a label to an extent. But I just like to say that I like to change worlds with words. And that sounds huge, and like a very big task. And like I'm doing loads, but it's done in the smallest of ways. And I find this, the small things are the big things, actually. So I started Franken feel on first of January 2020, an interesting year to start a business maybe someones day. And it actually started I think ruminating around my head a couple of months before that, because I it started with candles, the true start of Franken field is with candles, I bought what was quite inexpensive candle to me. And I got it home and I started to burn it. And I was like this is this was not some amount of money. And I don't know if I just been paying attention to I don't know, things around me or that I guess they say you know, the things you're seeking, they kind of find you or they become more obvious because you're looking for them. And I'd seen a whole raft of people setting up their own independent candle businesses. And I was like, I wonder if I could do that. So I went into immediate planning mode, which is my default, when I took a couple of workshops, when we could do things in real life as a standard in candle making and making basalts and I wonder if this could really be a thing like creating these but I knew I always wanted to have words in there somewhere. So when people ask me, where does the name Franken field come from? In true honesty, it's because I was copying the template that seemed to exist of candle brands having something and something like that. They were cool with and so that's where it kind of came from. But really it's I guess it's about me speaking feelings, frankly. And so it started with candles but very quickly though I loved making them. I make made them For friends, I still make a few for myself, I realised I didn't want to do it on a commercial level, I just liked having that pursuit that interests that skill for myself. And actually, it was the words that seemed to be resonating around social media or wherever I was sharing them, as opposed to Oh, well, maybe there's something here. So I let myself just continue with curiosity, writing, sharing words, being on podcast, creating a newsletter, and people would just started to approach me to say, Oh, I need some words for this. Could you do that? I need some words for that, could you do this? And honestly, I think I've kind of become an accidental business owner in a way purely because I followed curiosity, not knowing where it would go. But that was also I guess, in a small way, part of the plan, because I wanted to be quite upfront with people to say, I have this interest, I don't know where it's going. We always were used to seeing like the before and after transformation. But my whole business journey is the messy middle, and being quite open about that. And again, I think that's something else that that resonates. And I'd like to think that I'm showing the ebb and flow of growth and the twists and turns and how it's shaping up. And I think that's maybe what makes people connect with the things I write.
Anna Dunleavy 11:27
Yeah, I think you're right, because you're speaking to that, like you say, that messy middle, or that so often gets kind of glazed over, it doesn't perhaps get discussed. Enough, actually. And for the people who are in the thick of it, you know, we either see the kind of very kind of beginning stages of something forming, or the more polished, you know, this is the final product, or this is where I am now, stories, and I think it's actually so it's the messy meadow, it's the stuff kind of the day to day, actually, that like I say, the ebbs and flows that actually we don't perhaps often talk about enough. And I think that's really, that's really what I would imagine people really connect with
Sasha - Frank+Feel 12:15
life, the whole of life, whether you're talking about a business journey, or a personal journey, most of it 95% of it is the messy middle. So why aren't we talking about it more? Yeah.
Anna Dunleavy 12:28
I love that it's so true. And something that just kind of reminded recently that you said earlier about, you know, the kind of small moments, and they're and they're small, sometimes actually, technically insignificant things are actually where it's at. Right? It's not the big, you know, the big goal is achieved. It's, it's the little things and the
Sasha - Frank+Feel 12:52
Yeah, it's the tiny things, because they are the growth spurts. They are, you know, the soil that's been nourished, you know, that's the start of something showing for all those small, incremental steps that you've been making. So yeah,
Anna Dunleavy 13:12
yeah. And I also love how the candles kind of brought you here. Because I do not start at that and thought, actually, I can make this into a business, perhaps you wouldn't have ended up on this, you know, for the, for lack of a better word journey. And, and I think so many of us, perhaps can relate to that to that, actually, sometimes, you know, we take these kind of turns that perhaps at the time seemed to be it, but actually, they just lead us on to their kind of next more, more aligned path,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 13:46
I guess. Yeah. 100%, I think my main thing is always to be open to curiosity and possibility checks in a way is really useful. But I've called my business, Frank and Bill because it doesn't necessarily align with anything as such, apart from maybe the way that I approach business or the way I'm approaching things, just openly and honestly, because I don't know where it could go. I didn't see the places where it's taking me to now. And I don't know where it could take me from here. But that's all part of the process and the interesting parts of it all.
Anna Dunleavy 14:27
Yeah, I guess that's what makes it exciting. Yeah, I've always found that that actually, it feels in itself quite abundant, because you've got all the kind of possibilities ahead of you. So I would love to talk about journaling. And I guess I'm curious that Have you always been a writer? Is that something that you've always done?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 14:50
I have always been a writer in some form. I only started calling myself a writer in 2020. I don't know what qualification I thought I needed. And before I can call myself this, but if you put a pen to paper, you're a writer. And so yeah, I wrote my first short story when I was like seven or eight years old. And I always remember the title. It was called waiter, there's a waitress in my suit. It was great. And yeah, I've always kept journals and diaries. And all. I was big in the blog space when it first kicked off. And I think I've blogged for about seven or eight years before stepping away from it. And there's always been this kind of shift towards and shift away shift towards shift awareness. But writing in some form has always been part of my life.
Anna Dunleavy 15:41
Yeah, that's amazing. So you've ready? It's an integral part of you then?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 15:48
Absolutely, absolutely. I've got journals and diaries and notebooks. Honestly, I think on my desk at the moment, I've got two notepads, a planner and two journals, and then a desk pad of notelets paper is just my life paper. here really is everywhere.
Anna Dunleavy 16:10
I love that I am looking at my desk now I've got like a weekly pad that's on my left, where I kind of jot things down. And then I've got a couple of notebooks. my diary, another kind of notebook where I was making notes for some courses that I've been doing. So yeah, I 100% paper all the way. Too much of electronics. Yeah, anything that gets us away from screens? Sometimes they cause very good. Yeah. So tell me about the journaling? What kind? What form does it take for you? Because I appreciate obviously, it's very personal, it depending on how you process information and how you like to make sense of your thoughts, I guess, it might look very different. So I'm curious what that looks like for you.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 17:00
A lot of the time, I let it be what it needs to be. So this morning, I asked myself a question. And then I wrote the five W's and H, where, why, when, what, who, and how. And that's how I thought that the entry was going to go. So I started with the war. And then I just noticed these other thoughts kept coming into my head. So I just, I just like kind of stopped at the end of that and just wrote the random thoughts that were in my head, which I guess is more stream of consciousness journaling. And I'm that kind of messy rebel in my journaling. And I don't expect it to look like any particular thing. The habit is the writing, not necessarily the habit or the structure of how it looks. So it's not always prompts. It's not always screen reporters, no, sometimes it's just bullet points. Sometimes it's a brainstorm of just random words coming off, because my brain is not in the right space to put together cohesive sentences. I think sometimes people can be put off journaling, because they think, Oh, I'm not very good at writing, or I can't write streams in the streams of things about myself. But I think there's a style of journaling for everyone personally.
Anna Dunleavy 18:15
Yeah, but I think what you're saying is actually, it's, it's acknowledging what we need in that moment. So, you know, some days, like you say, some days, it might be a big kind of essay, and where we're all pours out of you. And other days, it might be really brief. Or you might just want to jot down some bullet points. And actually, I really love that flexibility within that, because I think, when I first started journaling, I assumed that it had to kind of take the form of, you know, a few pages of cohesive writing. But actually, I'm not always in the mood for that. So I think it's, you know, and coming back to that self trust, yet, you know, you're cultivating it and allowing yourself to do what feels right to you in that moment.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 19:04
Absolutely, I have a few grounding prompts, that I always come back to, and they are literally three little bullet points, just write body, sleep, and mind slash mood. And if nothing else, I write about those three little prompts each morning because I find them to be quite grounding, and they affect my day, they let know, you know, if I haven't had a better night's sleep, what kind of active duty should I be getting involved? What tasks Should I get stuck into and what can maybe be pushed to another day? So sometimes literally, just writing two sentences per prompt is enough to help me kind of navigate the day almost rerouted, just taking that time to be like, okay, where are you at? And just bearing that in mind to help you go through the day?
Anna Dunleavy 19:58
Yeah, so it Is the daily habit then for you, you do what you say you do it pretty much every day.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 20:05
It's pretty much daily. But again, with the whole self trust thing, if it's not, it's not. And that's not me being perfectly imperfect. It's just, that's just life. I also like to bring the joy to my journaling, because sometimes I get the feeling that it's always it has the reputation that it's always about deep introspection. And again, this idea of fixing and shifting and what can improve? No, sometimes it's just about joy. Why am I happy for right now? What's what have I done to bring me to, to this moment? What am I really enjoying, and it could just be 10 things that I'm really enjoying is, it's literally just a stream of consciousness, however, it comes out on the page, in written form.
Anna Dunleavy 20:56
Yeah, I love that you're so right, that I think it can be often used as a tool to kind of to work through stuff, right? Whatever, you know, whatever might be coming up, but actually, yeah, using it for in a more joyful way and bringing in more kind of fun into it, actually, because, yeah, why? You know what, I think sometimes I think I'm guilty of this, that I have a pre determined kind of idea of how something should look. And I don't ever stray away from that container, I guess. So actually, given ourselves more freedom within it, and the way that we might maybe journal each day, you know, whether it's changing the kind of form or whether the themes that we're exploring or changing, actually given us some freedom within it as feels quite freeing. And yeah, nice. Yeah.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 21:53
Because at the end of the day, it's all about hearing yourself. For me, journaling is an ongoing conversation. And if you think about the conversations you have with any of the people in your life, it's not always the big down heavy stuff. Sometimes you're just like, oh, what should we have for dinner, that that that meal was amazing, it was so good. But it's just continuing that conversation. So I don't always look for deep revelation every time I open my journal, but I am looking to always be able to hear myself, that's the most important thing for me. Hmm.
Anna Dunleavy 22:28
And in your work, you talk about connecting with your True North Star. And I guess what you just described there is that continuing that conversation and allowing yourself to kind of hear what actually kind of going on for you? How important is that for you? What what kind of brought you on to this at an effort to cultivate that habit, I guess,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 22:54
of seeking my my North Star or like the habit of journaling? What I guess I would say both. Okay, I think I came to a point in my life where I had been trying to control everything so much and grip onto everything. And I guess, not necessarily just for x, turn or view, but trying to make it seem like everything was okay, and convince myself that everything was okay. And, and as long as I think it's fine. As long as I act as though it's fine, it'll be fine. And I think I've just got fed up of hiding from myself and hiding myself in plain sight of other people. And my journal is the one place where I feel like I can just show up exactly as I am. I don't have to put anything on my face. I don't have to speak a certain way. I can just show up as I am in that moment. And like you said, it's freeing. It is entirely freeing to me. And I also realised, again, like you said, at the top of the conversation, there is a lot about ourselves that we already know. But a lot of it has been shrouded under shoulds and labels and titles and expectations, whether that's to fire at all cultural expectations or whatever. And I just made a point of slowly but surely trying to listen to more of myself. Even if I didn't act on it. There was monumental shift in just making space to hear some of those things. Yeah.
Anna Dunleavy 24:33
And for someone who perhaps isn't used to hearing that because many of us aren't, we're just it's not again, it's not something that perhaps, you know, has even been talked about and often allowing ourselves to really connect with what, you know, we are feeling and thinking it's not always what's the word I'm looking for. Convenient, right? Sometimes it's easier to just kind of go with the flow of whatever's happening. And without, you know, really pausing to kind of tune in, I guess. So for anyone who perhaps isn't used to doing this, do you have any kind of tips on what they could do to start to connect with their true north?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 25:20
Well, it's interesting that you said that sometimes it's more convenient. And it's easier to just go with the flow. Who is easier for? Who is it convenient for? Because I know, it's not me.
Anna Dunleavy 25:32
Most of the time, I would probably, and, and again, that's mainly a generalisation. Probably For everyone else, you're not upsetting, you know, the, the kind of status quo so to speak, you know, you're Yeah, you're just kind of going with what what their general structures of life are.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 25:55
Whether actually, it fits in with what you really truly want or not, you know, it is entirely easier to do a lot of these things that are essentially coping mechanisms, if not the trauma responses to do things yourself, because you know, you'll get it done quicker and done the right way to go with the flow, because it just avoids an argument. But I just started to think, I guess, of my life as it is the spa, and think am I going to do that for the rest of my life, just what everybody else expects of me, and have like this internal fire burning inside me, of just feeling so unseen and unheard, and not stood up for by myself. And so in, in the, in the quiet privacy of my journal, that's where I just started to write about really small things, it could be the way that person spoke to me really irritated me today. And I think the start of the start of finding any kind of North Star, and in terms of the truest version of you, I guess, is just in allowing certain feelings to come up and registering them. And it doesn't matter if they didn't come up in the moment. But if it sat with you, take note of it, because that has affected you in some way. And that's what I'll write about. It's not about, I guess, being perfect, always having the perfect response to someone because I am the queen of having arguments with people in my head that happened about two hours ago, and all the things that I think that I should have said at the time, but didn't So yeah, I would say, start small. It might even be in the journal, it might be in the record a function of your phone, where you're just a few minutes before you go into the office or pick up the kids or whatever. You just write about or speak about how you're feeling. And I think there's there's a lot to be taken just from acknowledging and also voicing. So whether that is voicing through your actual voice or voicing through a pen, and noticing the things that keep coming up, because I've always believed that the things keep that keep coming back to you, or for you, or they're things that you're meant to do something with other things you're meant to pay attention to, and maybe change or make progress on. But that's one of the ways that I've, I think I've found my North Star it's been in noticing the patterns, the things that keep coming back to me, following my curiosity, mainly those two but as we continue to talk, maybe more will come up
Anna Dunleavy 28:57
there thank you for sharing those I think. Yeah, voicing what's going on and acknowledging can actually be really powerful tools, just by themselves. Actually, we don't, it's not always necessarily even about then having to take action immediately or ever at some times. Right You know, depending on what the situation is. I think just acknowledging what you know what's coming up can be really powerful all by itself.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 29:26
100% here allowing yourself to hear yourself for the first time and sometimes forever can be it can be so can be a bit overwhelming actually allowing yourself to feel things that you would normally suppress and push down and just say, Fine about or go quiet. We will retreat to familiar coping mechanism. It is an entirely brave and courageous act a lot of the time when, as you said it can be easier just not to do that. But we can spend our lives going through the motions But is that a lie? Yeah.
Anna Dunleavy 30:03
You've described it beautifully. It's courageous work. Actually. Just yourself if no one else. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that in itself is really powerful. Because ultimately, yeah, it's it's our own. How we kind of acknowledge and speak to ourselves is kind of, you know, hugely important.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 30:26
I, I've heard, I don't know where I heard this bias stuck in my head for years. The phrase, be careful how you're listening, how you speak to yourself, because you're listening. Yeah. And, you know, we can be our number one critic, but are we also our number one cheerleader when it's required?
Anna Dunleavy 30:45
Yeah, I actually talk about this sometimes when it comes to the kind of the business side of things because as solo up, you know, individual business owners, I guess we were in our head, a hell of a lot of time, right? Because Yeah, because this, we don't have a team of colleagues we can speak to we don't have an office full of, you know, other people that perhaps we could just talk through something with. And so a lot of that dialogue is happening inside our head. And actually, it's very easy for it to go down that, you know, the more negative kind of spiral,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 31:23
I guess, you I think the thinking that even if it's not in terms of the words, you're saying to yourself, sometimes I like to pay attention to the actions that follow certain things, or the things that I register in my body, if I'm feeling a lack of money, sort of twisting in my stomach, that doesn't feel good. Or if I'm immediately retreating to sugar, and the loss of it is like that, something I need to ponder on, because I am really, really learning that. As well as kind of like, the cognitive and the stuff that comes from your brain, the body keeps a lot of knowledge, the body really does. Keep the school a lot of the time about the things that are right for us and true for us. So I guess I'd add that Northstar lesson list as well. Notice what happens in your body, but in certain situations, because that in itself is worth its gold in terms of guidance.
Anna Dunleavy 32:25
Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. It's something that I've been personally, kind of exploring over the last perhaps a year or so. And something that I'm starting to kind of learn more about from a kind of work point of view, I guess. Because, yeah, like noticing, like, for example, you know, when you say yes, to a request, right? And actually, you really wanted to say no, how does that feel in your body? What, you know, how are you? What's kind of presenting? Because actually, that can like you say, that can be a real true? Well, it can really show us and tell us a lot.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 33:06
Absolutely. And then I think a lot of the time, if people are thinking about our being brave, or making brave steps, and, and doing things in doing kind of this incremental work of noticing, just noticing how you felt in certain situations that maybe did or didn't feel right to you, even if your mouth said something that was completely opposite what your body was feeling. That was it was gonna be really good. Sorry.
Anna Dunleavy 33:40
So I'm curious. I wanted to kind of sweat why not switch gears, actually, because it follows on from what we've been talking about. But you use the phrase, though, I doubt I do in your work on on your website. And I would really love to hear what does doing through doubt mean to you? And I guess what your relationship with self doubt has been like, which is a big question.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 34:08
During your doubt, to be honest, means everything to me, because I feel like I have labelled myself as somebody who doesn't finish things. And so therefore, that becomes my own expectation of myself. So I started lots of things with a lot of enthusiasm. But, you know, I'm not a finisher, so doing through doubt, to me, a lot of the time refers to completion and bringing things to life that I would like and believe our value in the world and should exist in the world. Doing through doubt, being me taking the physical action of allowing myself To be heard, and be seen. And it means trusting more than doubting my capability. Yes, trusting what I think is possible rather than immediately coming down on it and saying, you know, so rubbish I do. It means that while I feel resistance, I can still make progress, just because things can be hard, doesn't mean that they are completely and totally immobilising. And it's what has carried me through for the last year and a half and do some things that to others may not seem massive. But to me, they're huge. And they're the building blocks of self trust, which means they are incredibly important. For me,
Anna Dunleavy 35:52
I think you've hit on something important here, actually, is that the things that we find hard, are often perhaps, easy to others, right? There's no kind of right or wrong here. And I think, recognising that, you know, sometimes perhaps the the steps we are taking, or perhaps when we look, you know, look to others, it you know, the steps that they're taking may look easy to us, when in reality, perhaps they haven't felt to them on the inside. Exactly.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 36:29
I think that sometimes we think about, or we compare and think about how things should be. So if it looks easy for others, it should be easy for us. And if it's not easy for us, then we're not capable, or we shouldn't be doing it. Not the case at all.
Anna Dunleavy 36:46
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a, I think we have a tricky relationship where you know, what feels easy, and therefore, I can do it. And if something feels perhaps a little bit more hard, or there's a kind of fear attached to it. That can often be an excuse not to go down that route. Or, you know, in many people's cases, you know, mine included, put it off for as long as you possibly can.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 37:17
Oh, my God. salutely 100%. Yeah, I hear you greatly on that. My last email letter that I wrote, I wrote about boats. And this idea that I didn't realise there were so many idioms that had references, the boats. So this idea of all being in the same boat, missing the boat, and counting, remember it now. But the main one was missing the boat. And I realised that a lot of the times I push opportunities away from me, or I wait until I'm able to say all the time has passed for that now as an excuse not to do it. And really, that's just me reacting to fear
Anna Dunleavy 38:01
by Yeah, I think I remember speaking to someone about wanting to start a podcast. And they said, you know exactly that. But they've missed the boat, you know, everyone's got one now. So it's too late. And that is, I think if we were to go through life with that approach to everything, we probably wouldn't do anything that we actually really wanted to, because we'd always be saying, well, that's already been done. So, you know, it's too late now. But today, what is too late? Who? Yeah,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 38:35
who kind of makes the rules? Exactly. And actually, sometimes I like to think about some of the bigger conglomerates out there. And I'm like, when you know, Mr. Starbucks, or as you know, cafe Nero, or any of these coffee shops set up yet another coffee shop, five minutes down the road from the other one, they're not thinking, Oh, well, there's too many. So you know, we shouldn't do or we can't do or we're too late. They just do it anyway. Yeah,
Anna Dunleavy 39:09
yeah. So maybe that's the method. Even if you think it's too late, or you've missed the boat, do it anyway,
Sasha - Frank+Feel 39:15
do it anyway. Because sometimes it's not about that. It's, it's, sometimes it's about completing that action, because actually, that can take you to somewhere else will give you the, the belief in yourself to try the next thing. Sometimes it's not actually about the thing you want to create. So if it was a podcast, it's just about doing it. Because of, you could say confidence, but I've got a funny relationship with my confidence. It just gives you another thing to put in your pocket of evidence that says Actually, I can do the things I want to do, because not everything that we create is going to be you know, as a success or whatever. But again, that shouldn't put us off. But there are there are so many other things that we can get Outworld doing and completing and achieving the things we want and the desires that we have other than the actual result that we're seeking?
Anna Dunleavy 40:09
Absolutely, I think there is there actually there is so much kind of rich learning and growth that can happen through going through that process. But what I wanted to say is kind of circle back to what we were talking about, you know, you wanting to set up a candle business. And actually, that, again, the decision to go through with that has led you down then a different path and allowed you to explore different avenues that perhaps wouldn't have happened as a result, you know, had you not done that. So, I always, yeah, again, it's kind of coming back to this more, in a sense, more of an abundant kind of view, I guess that even if this, isn't it, right? Maybe this won't last for however long, if it feels right in the moment, why not go with it, why not give it a go, and then you just never know where you will end up
Sasha - Frank+Feel 41:06
afterwards? Exactly. And the thing is, sometimes, okay, people don't want to think of it in terms of abundance and lack, sometimes, you know, what it's just giving yourself the chance is allowing yourself to be seen, because a lot of the opportunities that have come my way have just come from allowing myself to be seen, and you never know, really who's paying attention or connecting with what you're writing and what you're saying. And just giving yourself a chance to be seen doing the things that you like doing, can bring so much to you, I know that it is that it has for me. So even if it feels sticky, if it feels right, just give it a try.
Anna Dunleavy 41:50
What would you say? You know, when that fair does have a strong hold on us? Is that something that you perhaps have experienced and have been able to work through on, you know, move with, I guess
Sasha - Frank+Feel 42:04
variance creatively, probably every day, being honest with you. And there's a few things that I do. I try and take myself out of it. Because a lot of the time you're thinking what will people think of me? How will they they perceive this? How does this reflect on me? And actually, I think of what value is it giving to others? So from that point, I like to take myself out of it. I sometimes just think I always like to come back to my dad's saying his therapy is me who will say no, you must try to you know, just try to. So sometimes I'm like, I'm just trying something if it doesn't work, I'll know if you know if? Or if it does or doesn't work on though, but I'll only know if I do it. Right? Yes, yes. And so that I find really useful sometimes sometimes I I speak to myself on like, Okay, this isn't rocket science, like you're, you know, you're not creating some life or death type thing. Sometimes I try and find the lightness in in things because we can get so serious and bogged down in our own thoughts. And then our efforts that we forget to just find the fun or find the why, or just the best, you know what, Sasha is really not that deep?
Anna Dunleavy 43:31
Yeah, I'm really kind of nodding along with everything that you're saying, because it's so true. I, you know, I catch myself doing this all the time, where I do get, you know, poured into this very serious light, you know, what am I doing with my life? Or, you know, where is this going? But actually, you know, so you just try a thing? Yeah, just
Sasha - Frank+Feel 43:52
just try. Why no, like, um, a lot of the time, I'll do this thing where, you know, I've done all the things up until the point of releasing it and letting people know, I've done the research, I've created the product just found out the things that I didn't know along the process, and then I get all that way. And I let fear allow me from allow me to not release it and not be seen, and you've gone through all of that effort. Wow. Really do a number on ourselves.
Anna Dunleavy 44:28
Right? Yeah. But that leads me on to something that you've written on in your bio, I believe, about being a perfectionist planner. And I suppose the tendency or, or what I'm hearing from that is that, you know, we'd love to create a perfect plan. And like you say, you go through the motions of getting to almost that final stage of actually putting something out there, then releasing it into the world, let's say is that is that tendency that you've picked up on over the years? Or is that something more relatively kind of new for you?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 45:08
I don't know, if I've journaled enough to know, it's I don't I definitely don't think it's new, though. You probably can take it back to school days were having from Caribbean background, like your school education was everything. And so you would get like 95% in a test. And, you know, your mind would be like, Oh, well, that's, that's good. But what happened to the other factor? Since you pick up these things, where it's like, if it's not perfect, if you're not going to achieve the top end? Don't bother trying? Yes. So and you you, you don't realise that there's still a lot to be taken from coming in second, third, fourth place and not even thinking about places, but just from from the doing, like you were saying, the rich learning that comes from the process. Sometimes we don't pay that enough attention and give it the kudos that it deserves.
Anna Dunleavy 46:06
Yeah, because I think we are, you've just described, we're looking at the final kind of, you know, the mark on the test where the kind of final outcome, what does that look like? And actually forgetting all the steps that we took to get there? Or the perhaps, skills we had to learn to get to, you know, the place we're going? And I think, yeah, I think we're almost Yeah, doing ourselves a sales a little bit of a disservice, I guess. Yeah. By solely focusing on the on the Yeah, on the final thing.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 46:40
Yeah. And then I guess the, what the perfectionist piece where you're like, oh, it can't go out until it's absolutely perfect, but then constantly moving the boundary of what perfect is, and then you compare that or you add that in with the plan a bit, which means I have to be 100% ready to do this else, I can't even begin to start. And the to just implode against each other. I think the whole planning thing for me, I think comes from where I've applied for jobs in the past. And I would read job specs and be like, unless I can do 85% of this role already. I'm not going to apply. And that's a really sad way to view things. Because actually, it makes sense to me now why I would get into jobs, and within three months be bored. You need to have something that's going to stretch you in your interest for a certain amount of time. You can't be like 99% ready before you apply for something. There's there's no space for growth there.
Anna Dunleavy 47:49
That is such an important point actually, that Yeah, we need. We need things to stretches. And yeah, allow for that growth.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 47:58
And we run away from it. But I think he is a deep need within us.
Anna Dunleavy 48:04
Yeah. And I recognise that in myself quite a bit that actually. I think I have a quite an impatient nature, or, you know, anyway, but yeah, absolutely. I'm motivated, and I feel I don't really suppose maybe connected, I guess when I'm learning new things. And I am kind of, I feel like I'm growing. But whether there's a unhealthy attachment to that as well, perhaps, you know, but we won't go into that now. But yeah, a moderate sense of growth is healthy, I think. Yeah. Okay, so as we are wrapping up, if there is one tip you could give your younger self, what would it be?
Sasha - Frank+Feel 48:50
It would be to pour into yourself as much as you do other people. I think I personally grew up believing that service acts of service would get you everywhere. And a lot of the time they just burn you out. And I would do so unashamedly and unapproved, unapologetically. And actually, it's the same advice that I would give myself today. Sometimes I sit and think, oh, when I do the comparison Olympics in my mind and think, Oh, you know, you've got all this time to yourself. You're not you're not a mom, you don't have like dependents looking after you. You don't. So you know, how can you want more time for yourself and you want us you want to slow morning on top of all of these other things. But actually, it's a moot point because me feeling guilty for the things I think I need isn't going to serve or give more time to somebody else in their situation. So just give yourself as pour into yourself as much as you do. Other people and maybe even more than because I feel like when I do those things for myself, I guess it does make me That person to kind of be able to have the to know when I've got the capacity to give out and also to do the do those things for other people. But yeah, remember that when you're giving to everybody else, you are people too? Yeah.
Anna Dunleavy 50:18
Yeah, that is such a good reminder, I think where, again, you know, whether that's cultural or whatever you want to call it, there is a tendency to want to kind of give more than we give ourselves, I guess, give to others and say, yeah, that's a really great reminder. Thank you. So, lastly, where can people find
Sasha - Frank+Feel 50:38
you pretty much find me everywhere under my now out of sync candle brand name. Frank and feel so there's a website? I can feel.com. And you can also find me at Frank and feel on Instagram. And yeah, those are the main two places. But yeah, if anywhere under that name, that's where you find me.
Anna Dunleavy 51:01
Amazing. And you also run a monthly journaling workshop is that that is kind of a an ongoing project.
Sasha - Frank+Feel 51:09
Yeah, I run them once a month in the in the middle of the month, and they've got a loose theme. So the next one coming up, the theme is delight. Because again, like I say, gentlemen, is not always about deep introspection, there's a lot to learn from the light as much as there is like the shadow in the dark. And I do them online via zoom, and they started in February. And they've been going up until now. And I've really, really enjoyed them. So just launched an audio journaling guide. Again, they're going to be themed. But the idea behind those is that you can do them without a screen, you can just listen they're done in real time. So there's no need to like press play and pause. And you don't have to be in the right time zone or you know, if you have plans, you can just do them at your leisure. So that's one of the main
Anna Dunleavy 51:59
ways in that sounds really nice. It sounds like a really quite nice and nourishing way to kind of give yourself some time with with some pen and paper. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Lovely. Thanks for having me, Anna.